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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:52 pm Re: Rawlings wasters |
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| mikronn wrote: | I don't personally like how they bind and am not convinced
they would be that much softer than a wooden waster. |
Thanks for your response Mike. Good to know that binding is an issue. Do
you think this would be as big an issue with the single handed swords?
How do they compare to wooden wasters when thrusting? |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:16 pm |
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Bah! just go steel and or wood, else after you've forked out coin for steel swords, wooden wasters, Mask/period Helm, Protection/period protection, and or soft kit [period], spare equipment, travel costs, food costs, misenallous costs etc. and to add the possibilty of say only useing nylon weapons...well its adds up!!! And some have taken years to get their gears together due to costs!....wheres that money tree?
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I like living.. |
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pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:53 pm Re: Rawlings wasters |
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| mikronn wrote: | The Order of the Boar has access to a couple of the longsword wasters - I bought them a few months ago. Happy to loan them for such a tourney.
I don't personally like how they bind and am not convinced they would be that much softer than a wooden waster.
cheers
mike |
Can't disagree with the comments on binding at longsword, the Knightshop people(who actually make the blades)are on the 5th or 6th iteration of longsword blades and still making improvements. One advantage of being here, and there are only a few, is that you can actually talk face to face with the makers. As to the advantages over wooden waters, well were do you start, stronger, unbreakable, better weighted, better in the hand, safer in the thrust, cheap, immediately available, modular construction, ease of repair, adapatability etc.
Some of the longsword people, those who can afford it, are moving to the steel feder style training swords and increasing the level of protection accordingly. Previously these have been very expensive from Albion and others, but now swordmakers from eastern Europe have picked up on the demand and are turning out excellent work for very reasonable prices.
Phil |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:29 am |
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| JohnF wrote: | | Callum, what standard of dress do you require at your events, shoes, hose, braies, etc? |
Again it depends on the event. Most of the tourneys I organise will be part of a public event like Harcourt Park so I would expect period footwear. I don't mind modern analogues for other items like hose and braies for example if they are visually and functionality equivalent. For example I will wear a pair of dyed modern long johns or riding pants under my leg armour as these look and function much in the same way as period hose and braies does. If I'm at a strict "Living History" event then I'll wear hose and braies for that.
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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mikronn
Location: Plimmerton
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:44 pm Wasters of various sorts |
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Hi all
@John - don't know about the single handers but I suspect it may be similar. The shorter length may help. The longswords tend to bounce on hard bind - that's the length and the material. Having said that, they do suit your idea of a 'minimal kit' tourney: gambeson, gloves and fencing mask would do. I've sparred with foam over wood bokken with less.
@Phil. Agree with some of this. Certainly safer on the thrust. I've made us a set of wasters out of oak and they have held up under a fair bit of thumping. I've used lead to balance out the wasters and they are quite responsive in the hand. Not as good as steel but not bad either.
@Mad Jim. Yep. Nothing like steel for the real practice.
For those around for Callum's events (I'm part of his school) I'm happy to bring along both for people to take a look at.
cheers
mike |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:13 pm |
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We here in Dunedin use mostly wooden wasters for most of the training {namely due to lack of funds, [them] being students and all, lucky I got hold of some USA oak and made up a bunch of wasters, which have held up great}, for winding, and most disarms by taking the blade we use steel, with freeplay, being in both steel and wood.
Back on topic though a full period tournament would be awesome, but I see it as being really restrictive, especially if it was say only armoured combatants [costs], Blossfechten [unarmoured] is more what would suit the smaller pockets of the people...but then it has to come down to actuall art, with practice and disapline!
As for our guys here, at least 3 would be ok to fight, though really in a re-enacment style fight setting, as I feel they would not be good enough to enter a proper Art tournament [European Historic Art], myself included as we need much more practice and learning.
But then I'm leaning more toward a full EHA fight as opposed to re-enacmnet styles meet Historic styles meet SCA styles etc..
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I like living.. |
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pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:26 am |
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The single handed nylon wasters actually work better than the longsword ones. Nice and stiff along the edges but not too bad in the thrust. In the UK the nylons have almost completely banished the shinai based wasters and wood is principally used for weapons that have no good analogue eg messers, sickles etc. There are some groups that do practice singlestick and these still use ash or blackthorn "blades", usually copiced branches rather than dowels.
Personally I dislike wooden weapons, apart from daggers, due to the production of splinters when the tool is damaged or broken. However I guess needs must.
There is no doubt that steel weapons are the best 'simulators' of all, good ones are expensive and in a competative environment required a high level of protection be it for re-enactment fighting or WMA .
Phil |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:44 am Re: Wasters of various sorts |
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| mikronn wrote: | For those around for Callum's events (I'm part of his school) I'm happy to
bring along both for people to take a look at. |
I'll come down for one of the workshops, it's been a while since Callum
instructed me. And it'll be a good excuse to check out your nylon wasters.
Which generation of them do you have? As Phil said they've changed the
design a few times.
Phil, thank you for your review of them as training tools. I'm
convinced that there is a place for them in training. The sword is the most
popular weapon. The low cost of the nylons, and their relative safety
lower the barrier of entry to training and tourneying. It is now just a
question of priority.
You mentioned that eastern Europe is making kit at reasonable prices,
and I've independently discovered this myself and I've a queue of
bespoke items.
Callum, reading between the lines. If a significant number of
people wanted to use nylon wasters you'd accommodate them in an
event. But you do not think it likely that there will be such a group in the
near future. Nor will you actively promote the concept.
We can have large, historically accurate tournament in NZ. I agree that
as a country we're not quite there yet. But it will happen. Riveted mail is
coming down in price. Numerous companies are producing quality
weapons and bespoke armour at fair prices. It'll be grand when NZ
events look like this one:-
Photo from http://www.flickr.com/photos/arkland_swe/sets/72157627292892161/
Battle of Wisby (1361) anniversary.
Mad Jim, I agree that it is important to train with steel. It also has
to be good steel. I've bought a couple of crap swords, one made of
stainless which burred up quickly, and a CAS/Hanwei practical which was
tip heavy. They forced me to alter techniques to accommodate the
weapon. If I'm going to use an unswordlike object for training it might as
well be a nylon waster. I do prioritise steel over other materials, I've a
couple of Albion swords on order at the moment.
Even rebated steel swords do not handle in the same way as sharp ones.
With a blunt weapon it is possible to push a shield round. A sharp one
tends to embed itself in a shield and may require a tug to remove it. Or a
sharp spear may penetrate it, and it may be better to leave the spear in it
and draw a secondary weapon. A sharp blade will handle edge on edge
contact differently as well. There is merit in many training tools, and none
of them can cover all angles of the art. |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:49 am |
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With our wasters I wrap them in a couple of layers of tape [black electrical tape] and that helps alot to combat cracking and splinters, I do this for both the messers and longswords, daggers not so much.
Albion swords are mean, The Maestro Liechtenauer is the "Sword Eater"!!
@JohnF, though I wouldn't not want to try the nylon wasters, seems they are getting better all the time!
_________________
I like living..
Last edited by Mad Jim on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Robbo
Location: In the Tree's
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:08 am |
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Am I the only one who likes the spear going under and up the guys helm about mid way thru the pic, right hand side?  
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Hail the Sky Traveller |
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Ben
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:19 am |
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| Or the scared / confused looking girl in the bottom left with no gloves and a wooden sword... |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:36 am Re: Wasters of various sorts |
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| JohnF wrote: | | Callum, reading between the lines. If a significant number of people wanted to use nylon wasters you'd accommodate them in an event. But you do not think it likely that there will be such a group in the near future. Nor will you actively promote the concept. |
I'm not saying that. Rather at the moment the only major event that I organise is the Harcourt Park jousts - every 2 years. Traditionally all the foot combat has been with steel weapons. But if there is the interest in an entry level tournament using non-steel weapons (e.g. wooden or nylon wasters) then I would certainly consider it if we have enough people who are prepared to meet the costume and kit standards for the event. After all the use of tourney weapons made out of whale bone, wood, etc. were quite common in the original medieval tournaments that the Harcourt Park jousts try to capture the essence of.
In fact there is a place for what you are proposing in some of the stuff Mike is doing through the New Zeland FreeStyle Martial Arts Association as we are promoting what we are doing to a wider group than just re-enactors. Earlier this year Mike did a basic longsword workshop at one of their training weekends which was well received. So I do see some potential in getting some of our tourney stuff included in some of their events at a later date. The entry level kit that you are proposing would be more suitable for this audience than the historical requirements that I require for a public joust for example.
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html
Last edited by Callum on Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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griff
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:05 pm |
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| And the guy to the left of confused looking girl looks remarkably like red beard. |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:23 pm |
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| griff wrote: | | And the guy to the left of confused looking girl looks remarkably like red beard. |
AHHAHA I thought that same thing this morning when I saw that pic, the woman next to him I thought had a nylon sword, by the looks of the hilt..
_________________
I like living.. |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:04 pm |
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| Mad Jim wrote: | | griff wrote: | | And the guy to the left of confused looking girl looks remarkably like red beard. |
AHHAHA I thought that same thing this morning when I saw that pic, the woman next to him I thought had a nylon sword, by the looks of the hilt.. |
I know quite a few people who took part in this event either as cavalry or infantry and it was a fun, well organised event by all accounts with no issues. The wooden sword is interesting though and I'll ask to see if this person was a marshal or something as it looks really out of place!
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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