Round shield techniques

[Boyd]

Discussion on Round Shield techniques displayed on Youtube from the Living History UK website;

http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11986&highlight=

Plus the Youtube link;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SRaa33otU


Enjoy

[Stuart]

This silly way of holding a shield is complete cobblers and will only serve to get you quickly killed on a regular battlefield. See the simular comments by Neil of Ormsheim. He has been a jarl for twenty years and knows a thing or two about real dark-age combat techniques.

Try it standing in a shield-wall and count how many seconds it takes to be murdered by spear, dane-axe or bow-shot.

[Inigo]

And if you read the rest of the conversation, you'd see that it isn't intended for use in a shield wall - it's for one-on-one combat.

[Stuart]

Good morning Derek.

I don`t consider this to be a useful technique for one-to-one combat. It might have an application for stage-fighting students, but I can`t see much point. It`s a bit of a dead-end.
The only good thing about it is to encourage the partisipents to make full use of combat space. i.e, stepping and closing the fighting distance.
What do you think ?

[Inigo]

G'day Stuart

I know a number of fighters who fight with their shield "open" when fighting one-on-one with Viking style round shields. I hold that the initial shield position is perfectly fine for one-on-one combat as it gives good visibility and with the extended reach still allows excellent defence against a sword. I wouldn't use guard in mass combat and probably not against a spearman. But I'd feel comfortable facing someone similarly armed with sword and shield.

I'm not sure about the attackers technique though, as I've never tried it. It looks interesting and worth experimenting with at full speed, if only to dismiss it as being "a bit of a trick shot that only works in some circumstances". It seems to me that the technique only work if the defender is passive, which is not good technique.

In my experience, fighting with the shield open requires you to be very active with your shield work and foot work, which the defender isn't in the first 25% of the video.

[Gerard Kraay]

The Open Guards, inside and outside is out of Talhoffer, and are perfectly usable in duelling and historically correct, at least based on Talhoffers Fight Book. (As far as I am aware)
The principle is as has been discussed at length about deflection and getting over thinking that a shield is invincible and cant be cut through with a sharp sword, or destroyed with a impact weapon.
If anyone would like to test this, bring a shield to AS&S training one day and have a go hitting it with my sharp Falchion.
This is in the style of shield work we are teaching at AS&S for duelling, but it is difficult to get out of the habit of just sticking the shield in the way of an incoming blow and forgetting about the principles of deflection.

Gerard

[stephan]

i agree with derek it would work in some situations and thats probley all they are showing a situyation ie one move and it uses the concept of not directily opposing the enemys blade but puting it some where in your control
still pretty cool


stephan

[stephan]

if you read the posts from the first link most of them seam to say the same as what we are saying :not a battle feild thing" " but something you can do if you find a numty doing this "

stephan

[McMellow]

I use a variation of this (i have strap on shield) and this works against S&S guard 2 stance when the sword is touching the shield so i see it as just a basic stifle (sp) wouldn't try it if op in any other stance

[Vorschlag]

No offence to the creators (as it seems to happen with most videos of techniques) but their holding their weight wrong and it's forcing them to make up for it with incorrect footwork.

As everything in combat is limited by your footwork their techniques are not coming off right.
I also feel they are holding that ward incorrectly as for their own protection they need to be drawing the arm in and the wrist needs to be in a position to control the line.

As for battlefield techniques, I'm presently under the impression most unit combat is done with spears or similar length weapons and swords were a secondary weapon for once a formation was broken.

This no longer holds true once you bring in the landsknechts of course.

[Colin]

[Victorius]

I concur: Historical depictions of Ancient Greek hoplites show this style of fighting, where the round shield is held open. The famous vase painting showing Achilles fighting Hector has both combatants holding their shields in the open position, as do various others. This is for one-on-one fighting. However, they also show it for battle combat: One of the temple relief frieze sculptures, and incidentally one of the few visual (as opposed to literary) depictions of phalanx formation fighting, showing the Gigantomachy between the Gods and Giants, where the Giants are shown as Archaic Period hoplites, and are standing in close-order formation with open shields. The earliest visual depiction comes from the Chigi vase, and shows two opposing hoplite armies marching in very close order: again, shields are shown open.

[Patch]

DiGrassi, His True Arte of Defence. 1594.
Of the manner how to hold the round target.

If a man would so bear the round Target, that it may cover the whole body, and yet nothing hinder him from seeing his enemy, which is a matter of great importance, it is requisite, that he bear it towards the enemy, not with the convex or outward part thereof, altogether equal, plain or even, neither to hold his arm so bowed, that in his elbow there be made at least a straight corner. For besides that it wearies the arm: it likewise so hinders the sight, that if he would see his enemy from the breast downwards, of necessity he must abase his Target, or bear his head so peeping forwards, that it may be sooner hurt than the Target may come to ward it.

And farther it so defends, that only so much of the body is warded, as the Target is big, or little more, because it cannot more then the half arm, from the elbow to the shoulder, which is very little, as every man knows or may perceive: So that the head shall be warded with great pain, and the thighs shall altogether remain discovered, in such sort, that to save the belly, he shall leave all the rest of the body in jeopardy.

Therefore, if he would hold the said Target, that it may well defend all that part of the body, which is from the knee upwards, and that he may see his enemy, it is requisite that he bear his arm, if not right, yet at least bowed so little, that in the elbow there be framed so blunt an angle or corner, that his eyebeams passing near that part of the circumference of the Target, which is near his hand, may see his enemy from the head to the foot.

And by holding the said convex part in this manner, it shall ward all the left side, and the circumference near the hand shall with the least motion defend the right side, the head and the thighs.

And in this manner he shall keep his enemy in sight and defend all that part of the body, which is allotted unto the said Target.

Therefore the said Target shall be born, the arm in a manner so straight towards the left side, that the eyesight may pass to behold the enemy without moving, for this only occasion, either the head, or the Target.

[Colin]

That's Giacomo Di Grissi's starting position. In play, for example, he'll turn the target in a manner similar to what was shown in the video.

"...it is necessary that he encrease a left pace, and with the circumference of his owne Target, to beat off the enimies sworde and Target..." [emphasise mine]

If that isn't clear, here is an image from Camillo Agrippa from which Di Grassi's treatise builds from.

Digression and nitpick: While I'm not the owner of Gathering Darkness, when you link images directly into your (plural) posts you are opening up Nigel to potential lawsuits. It's known as bandwidth theft. Unless you've got explicit permission to link said images directly, every time anybody opens this thread up, bandwidth is taken from those websites. News Agencies are particularly active in this area BTW. If you want to have images visible here at GD, I suggest you either take advantage of Nigel's ability to upload images or upload them to your own server and link them. Hyperlinking as I have done does not cause bandwidth theft since the browser has to open said link directly.

Just something to be aware of.

[Inigo]

Or use http://imageshack.us/ to upload them to the web and then link to them.