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mikronn
Location: Plimmerton
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 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:50 pm Wasters and other things |
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Hi all
@John - 3rd generation. Interesting to see Phil's comments on the single handed sword - that does make sense to me. The length with the longswords gives real flex.
@Mad Jim. I soak ours with linseed/turps (5:1) and the 'wet' surface means they tend to ding/dent rather than splinter but your idea works too. Then a beeswax polish gives a more steel like bind and protects the surface from splintering.
I have a couple of the Tinker longsword trainers. Not too bad. I bought a couple of the Gen 5 Hanwei hand and halves - don't like them so am planning to flog them off. Grip length is the issue - the blades are actually quite good.
I've got and Arms and Armor Spada da Zogho on order - can't wait for it!
As Callum says - there is an audience out there for the light kit/safer weapons. It gets them into our discipline without a lot of expense.
Personally I'm more with Mad Jim - my full Gallowglass (apologies for the anglicized spelling) kit and steel
cheers
mike |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:02 pm |
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Yea as with Mike I love boiled linseed oil, so almost everything I make gets a good taste of it...all the wooden weapons, leather, hands you name it!
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I like living.. |
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Carl
Location: Just beyond the firelight
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:11 am |
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Hang on aren't we talking about a Steel Weapon tournament, how did this suddenly turn into the SCA?
Wooden wasters are all fine but they have one problem in my eyes, can you guess what it is.... let me give you a hint...
THEY ARE MADE OF WOOD!!!!!
If we are planning a National Level Tournament and we want it to be taken seriously then we need to use Steel.
End of story. full stop. then end.
(sorry for the rant voice but this is starting to get on my nerves.)
_________________
It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:57 pm |
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| Carl wrote: | | Wooden wasters are all fine but they have one problem in my eyes, can you guess what it is.... let me give you a hint... |
Well the discussion started to discuss a "National Tournament" but like so many discussions went down its own path. If you are referring to my particular events then mine are not "open" National Tournaments. They are specific to a particular time and historical format. It was quite common in the actual historical tournaments to use wood or whale bone weapons so there is historical precedent there. And for entry level tournaments I don't have a problem going down this route to get people started if there is the interest although my preference is for steel.
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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Callum
Sponsor
Location: Upper Hutt
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:01 pm |
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| Ben wrote: | | Or the scared / confused looking girl in the bottom left with no gloves and a wooden sword... |
One of my friends who took part in this event sent this reply back:
| Quote: | Glad you have heard of the best and biggest event ever in Sweden. The Battle of Wisby was the best week of my life, two great battles, a full contact tournament and lots of medieval fun.
I can assure you that there is not a wooden sword. For me, it looks as if it could be a "Hastings" sword from Pavel Moc. there were no marshals on the battlefield.  |
_________________
Callum Forbes
Order of the Boar - www.jousting.co.nz
Order of the Boar Historical Foot Combat -
www.hapkido.org.nz/upperhutt.html |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:30 pm |
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| Carl wrote: | | If we are planning a National Level Tournament and we want it to be taken seriously then we need to use Steel. |
Kendo is taken seriously.
Rebated steel is one of many tools for exploring the art. It is not the end
all and be all. Compare the effect of striking two rebated swords edge on
edge against doing the same with two live blades. Or striking a shield.
The only way to spar safely with rebated weapons is to wear armour, or
pull blows. Neither will produce a form of combat similar to the
unarmoured fighting of the ancient masters. Nor will using soft wasters.
But hopefully through a variety of tools we can come close.
The quality of the steel waster is important too. Mad Jim has mentioned
Albion's Liechtenauer and Mike A&A's Spada da Zogho. These are good
swords. However many people are using lesser swords. At the Ravens we
still have steel wasters made of a long bar of steel, with a small bar
welded on as a guard, and a circular section of steel as a pommel. They
are ill balanced, and heavy. Rubbish! As is my early generation
CAS/Hanwei Practical Sword. Looking forward to my Albion Sherriff and
I33 :).
I brought up the topic of non metal weapons. I was sticking my hand up
to say, "I am interested in competing in a non metal category". The last
few pages have been spent examining this narrow aspect. Mike, Callum,
and Phil, have been very patient with my questions. They have helped me
to form my own opinion on Rawling's wasters and their place in
tournament and training.
Some of the reasons our ancestors held tournaments was to prepare
themselves for war, to get laid, nostalgia for romances such as those of
King Arthur, money, camaraderie, and glory. They held many types of
hastiludes. some a outrance, some a plaisance. They had concerns about
safety and had weapons and armour especially made for sport. Above,
Callum said weapons of whalebone and wood were used at some
hastiludes. And that he is comfortable using modern equivalents in
modern tournaments.
Juliet Barker writes supporting statements in "The Tournament in England
1100-1400".
She also mentions that vespers, were sometimes held on the day or
evening before the main tournament. At some vespers knights fought
without surcoats or crests, and some of them did not compete the
following day at the main tournament. This was a low intensity event
designed as a trial run before the main tournament. Particularly important
if the tournament was fought a outrance. Possibly a modern tournament
could continue the concept of vespers and include soft wasters as part of
it?
Last edited by JohnF on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 am; edited 10 times in total |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:41 pm |
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| Callum wrote: | One of my friends who took part in this event sent this reply back:
| Quote: | Glad you have heard of the best and biggest event ever in
Sweden. The Battle of Wisby was the best week of my life, two great
battles, a full contact tournament and lots of medieval fun. I can assure
you that there is not a wooden sword. For me, it looks as if it could be a
"Hastings" sword from Pavel Moc. there were no marshals on the
battlefield. |
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If you've just started reading this thread check out the photo of this 2011
event at http://www.flickr.com/photos/arkland_swe/sets/72157627292892161/.
Truly inspirational of what a modern medieval tournament can look like.
Plenty of good pictures of the grand melee, individual duels, and some
nice kit.
It would be wonderful to have such an event here in NZ. Callum, thanks
for relaying your friends response. Surely the internet is a great boon to
our medieval interests, it allows us to share ideas quickly. |
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Katlin Hytonen
Location: Thames, Waikato
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:22 pm |
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Yeh great idea (my ankle should be good by then) Katlin.
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Hail Thor, Hail Odin i am proud to be a Viking desendant. |
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Mad Jim
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:27 pm |
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| Katlin Hytonen wrote: | | Yeh great idea (my ankle should be good by then) Katlin. |
Bah! chop it off and get a peg leg..no more sore ankle...
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I like living.. |
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mikronn
Location: Plimmerton
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:32 pm Sparring generally |
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Hi all
I'd like to reiterate John's comments about styles of tournaments.
I've studied unarmed arts for many years and have competed in everything from touch contact points tourneys to Kyokushinkai full contact.
They all have their place and help you learn aspects of the art, especially until you decide to focus or specialise.
I understand, and agree, with Callum's focus on historically accurate (as possible) tourney approaches and train with him towards those! But there may be other opportunities to try some of the other sorts too, especially for those who are still learning.
On that note - you need to be comfortable with the level of contact/commitment in these things and be sure of what you are getting in to. Simple advice - if you are not sure, don't do it. You are bound to get hurt if you compete when you are uncertain or afraid.
cheers
mike |
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English Warbowman
Location: Hawkes Bay
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:12 pm |
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| In regards to improving kit standards. An acceptable level has to be set (seems like Callum has already done that) but then it needs to be enforced. E.g you wouldn't be allowed to take part with sub standard weaponry so the same rule has to be enforced with kit. Then you might see something approaching the photo that's been posted. |
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Terme
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:18 am |
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Those photos look to be more of reenactment combat than tournament combat! From what I have read and believe I understand even that kit (aka open faced kettle helms) would be considered insufficent in a full contact tournament due to safety concerns.
on a safety concern a few people have talked about grappeling and hand to hand, and how it is used in other combat styles, the issue I see is they dont have weapons getting added to the mix or metal armour (if used) there is plenty of edges on most objects we carry that could cause an unintended injury, why not have wrestling a side combat in less kit?
This is ment to be a discussion about an open event I feel like it is going a little off topic and we are discussing a historical event and that these are 2 completly different things which would have different rules and standards. |
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Silver
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:41 am |
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| English Warbowman wrote: | | In regards to improving kit standards. An acceptable level has to be set (seems like Callum has already done that) but then it needs to be enforced. E.g you wouldn't be allowed to take part with sub standard weaponry so the same rule has to be enforced with kit. Then you might see something approaching the photo that's been posted. |
Sorry but I feel as though you have put your foot in it
I would never a pic like that get out
as others have noted the lack of gloves????
the scared front line
pool que shots on the spears
blows going up into the face with spears on what should be a non head blow comp/display
this is messy and well bad
mabey the event went well but it could have gone so wrong.
Thank you carl and terme this has gone off topic
a new thred should be brought up about "soft wepons" and this thred should continue on how we can get this country into a international swordfighting rank.
we have the know how so how do we pull it together??
_________________
I mistook it for a brothel.
honest mistake. |
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pmel018
Principal Sponsor
Location: Wokingham, near Reading, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:33 am |
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Just to carry this back on topic a bit, the bottom line is that first you have to decide what type of tournament you want. WMA based, re-enactment based, a combination . After that the requirements will become a lot clearer, weapons, rules, authenticity, scoring etc.
The tournament videos I posted were examples only, of an event I actually attended, nothing more, nothing less. There is no really good reason to blindly follow what is done here in the UK, and I have no experience of what re-enactors are doing.A quick look at the websites for some of the larger groups shows a fairly low level of combat skill optimised for display work. The last time I played with re-enactors it was at the Battle of Hastings and I was amazed by what was acceptable, and what deemed dangerous.
As for the comments about the posted battle, many clubs do not require gloves when engaging in combat, some don't even require helmets citing authenticity as the reason. not my idea of a good time 
If there is a thread about other than steel weapons then I will take a few pics and post them up.
Good luck and play safe
Phil |
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JohnF
Location: Palmy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:08 am |
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Much of this thread has been dedicated to:-
1) Rules
2) What to wear
3) Weapon categories
4) What other people are doing
I put it to you that there are additional factors to consider, such as:-
1) Who will organise a national tournament
2) Where will it be
We are aiming low if we want a national tournament. Let's strive for an
international tournament.
The person organising the event is critical. If they are a person of
influence they will draw in large numbers. There are numerous medieval
events around NZ. Many that have a tournament attached to them. That
are open to all comers, from NZ or abroad. Yet have fairly small turnouts.
For an (inter)national tournament we need someone with contacts abroad.
No matter how much we talk, we cannot make such a person. They either
standup and say "I'll run an event" or they don't.
Callum is one such person, he's quietly getting things organised. Once he
has done his due diligence I'm sure we'll hear more. Perhaps there are
others in the woodwork who will announce their intentions once they are
prepared?
Location is important. A venue should be close to an international airport,
trains, and buses. It would have motels nearby for people who just want
to fight. There'd be room for a period encampment, and horses if there
will be a joust, or potential for a joust in the future. If you look at the
NAAMA calendar you will see a number of events that satisfy some of
these requirements, but not all.
Hiring a bus or two and transporting fighters to the event would be nice
too. If an event was profitable enough, a bus from Cape Reinga, and a
bus from Bluff could be laid on. This might make it possible for people to
attend who couldn't because of the expense of private transport, or the
difficulty in getting heavy equipment onto public transport. |
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