Combat Archery at NAAMA 2007

[quentin]

I would note that all of the archery I saw done at Hastings (etc) with the Vikings in 2001,2002,2003 was in the volley fire category.
ie It was known to be arriving & we had plenty of time to put our faces somewhere safe! Thier groups are big enough that the flanks could be recieving fire while the center charged.
Javellins and other missiles were "make eye contact with your target first" but steel heads. Few scored but it did look good!

I have also seen Regia Anglorum doing a melee archery safety test. VERY tricky test, requiring considerable skill to pass. Covers basic accuracy of course but also things like destination of richocts, never overshooting into the public or anywhere outside the boundary, etc. The chap had been training for quite a while and still failed. Open face helms however were the norm.
I think that our chances of getting this degree of training in our NZ archers are NIL. So I think that we need quite serious melee archery rules.
Volley fire , very much less so.

I suspect that any sane archer will run far and wide rather than get stuck in amoungst the sword and shields (they would die fast and gear gets damaged etc) so a auto-die at 5m seems rather unnessesary - the archer is no more at risk than any other combatant on the field at that point.
A no shooting from less than 10m rule, on the other hand, is good sense - or we reduce the bow poundage still further...?

On which .... very few of our fields are bigger than 50m. My vote is 30lb for everything.

Shield and armour richochets will go almost anywhere. So if you are going to fire into melee, then EVERY SINGLE COMBATANT is going to need critical area protection. Fire at archers who have c.a.p. on - Absolutely! Same risk as anyone else.

I think the idea is to prohibit head shots (duh?) & set an armour standard which prevents accidents from weapons which the user has no control over after they leave the bow. Doesn't have to be all that much really....how hard is 1.6mm mesh and some leather?

Q

[pmel018]

Hi Guys
the fewer rules the better! Archers should be able to mark down and loose at opposing archers, otherwise the whole exercise becomes a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. Auto-die for archers is rubbish, if they are threatened then they either retire from the field or, if properly qualified and equipped, join in the H2H fight.Stuarts point about bow draw weights is a reinforcement of mine 50lbs draw will send the flu-flu in excess of 150 yards and they bloody hurt through a tunic. At NAAMA field sizes 30lbs will probably keep the accident rate to something managable. The reference to Regia is interesting, I have never seen a Regia only display, but have spent quite some time discussing their methodology. The most obvious example of this is their attitude to helmets, not everybody would have had one in the day so not everybody should wear one in recreations, same for gloves, yet they persist with those hideous ball ended spears when a safe and more historically correct version exsists
YMMV
Phil

[Angel]

The auto-die thing is from the SCA rules where many of the archers are not normally combatatnts - it's the only form of combat that some of them partake in - it ups the number of archers on the field considerably.

They don't actually want to be hit by the heavy fighters - that level of contact isn't their thing - from personal choice, or medical reasons.
So they yield when an enemy combatant is able to get within weapon reach, so they don't have to worry about getting hit - and more importantly for some - that their archery gear does not get whacked.

I wouldn't risk my archery equipment - especially to steel weapons, so I will yield, no matter what the rules say. And anyone striking me when I have yielded will quickly find themselves booted off the field, and if they hit my gear, they'll receive the bill for the replacemeet.

[Chevalier]

[Stuart]

Archery.
I have friends in the SCA, and respect their arts and crafts. However, I do not have any regard for their combat rules. These seem to stem from a
litigious " look at me the wrong way and I sue " American thing.
The rest of the world is not American and thankfully has a bit more common sense when it comes to combat archery.
-look, just show up and take part. If you are worried, then we can assign a heavy infantry warrior ( or two ) to offer you protection. In reality, you and your equipment, are going to be quite safe.

Ball ended spears. Bad idea, a ball ended spear is just an infinate point.
The problem is not with the spear, its a issue of lack of control and poor training by Regia Anglorum. Most groups in the Uk are reluctant to take on squads of Regia spearman for that reason.
Its a UK problem, not a Kiwi one. Nothing for us to worry about.

Regards

[Angel]

[Stuart]

Hello Angel,

I think you are in some danger of judging steel fighters by the standards of SCA fighters. There is a huge difference. The SCA use full power blows and land them. Steel weapon fighters do not use full power except when targeting shields. The rest of the time we pull our blows and only land them with small force. As an archer you are welcome to wear as much armour as you feel safe in, but be assured no-one is going to hurt you.
As for yelding, again that is an SCA concept. In the battle reactments I did ( about 250 ) an archer threw down their bow or beat a quick retreat when directly charged by infantry. From the infantry point of view, if you are seen to carrying a bow you are a direct threat and are a target to be neutralised.
I never go on the battle field to bollock anyone. Show no fear and you will have no need to feel threatened or have the need to complain.
BTW, on tactics. Something that worked for in an archer/infantry role was the bow as primary weapon, but with the back-up of an spear stuck in the ground two paces behind where I was shooting from. Very handy in a scrap...!
If you are in Auckland how do you fancy tuning up at the next Five Oaks events ? They really need an archer with some flu-flus to do a demo.

Regards,

[Angel]

Hi Stuart,
A phrase about teaching grandmothers to suck eggs springs to mind, but it's obvious that you don't know who I am and we haven't met, so I'll forgive you, and we'll have to meet up at NAAMA!

I've been involved with NAAMA for the past 10 years or so, longer than I've been involved with the SCA - as long as there has been a NAAMA in fact. I'm officially an old fart. I helped write the NAAMA combat rules in their 2002 edition, and I'm currently involved in the 2007 revision of those rules. I also helped write the MLHNZ combat rules. I've marshalled at more steel events than I can shake my white staff at. =o) When someone wants a rules lawyer, they usually come find me.

By "bollocking" I mean "very vocally give them a piece of my mind, and take them off the field, unless it was an honest accident" - as is my job as a marshall.

SCA archers are used to being run at by fast moving heavies, since we are a valid threat. We usually run and shoot until there is no more room or we get outflanked.

I'm sooo not throwing my bow down, I paid too much money for it to do that! Sticking spears in the ground is all well and good, but the marshalls will get grumpy at you if you don't clean it before poking it at someone.

I'm in Wellington, so I'm unlikely to make it to the tourney, sorry.

[quentin]

Hi Stuart,
It may also be worth checking your sources regarding Regia Anglorum.
There is still a lot of bad blood between them and 'The Vikings!' over the way both groups broke away from the NFPS. I think perhaps you have been talking to some of the old school ?

I fought with both for more than 2 years. My opinion is 4 years out of date.
But 4 years ago Regia put the Vik to shame & I am surprised to hear that all that expertise has vanished?

I would like to hear first person feedback but not on this thread.
use this instead... http://www.gatheringdarkness.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2925#2925 under the reenactment combat heading.

Cheers
Q

[Stuart]

Hi Quentin,

I am very much old school vikings. I knew Kim Siddorn way back when he was an NFPS jarl. I left the Norse Film & Pagant Society, aka The Vikings a very long time ago.
Both societies have good & bad points and both can`t organise a decent company of archers !
I am keen for the re-enactors and warriors of New Zealand not to repeat the same mistakes that befell Dark-Age reenactment in the UK.
-the point here is that we all must co-operate and try to build bridges between clubs and societies, not burn them.
No group or fighting style is any better than another. We are just different. Work together. Our common interest should be combat.

Regards.

[NigelT]

Hi all,

OK, good points on the automatic death thing. I guess as Angel said I was badly paraphrasing the SCA rules. Let's go with the popular opinion - archers can yield or die at any time by holding their weapons over their heads and leaving the battlefield, or if they are appropriately armored, join the melee combat - although most archers are not going to go anywhere near combat with their bows.

My suggestion regarding archers being targets - if combat archery is by volley fire only, then archers can either do this from behind friendly lines, or from outside the field boundaries, behind friendly lines. If an archer is on the field they are a valid target and must wear armor. If an archer is off the field they cannot be targeted and any fighter moving outside the field boundaries faces being removed from the battle. I suggest doing this so that unarmoured archers can participate, thus including many archers who have no other combat equipment and no desire to get it.

All volley fire must be anounced in a way that will alert EVERY melee combatant in the opposing line. Volley arrows must not come at a line of combatants from the side and must not be fired if the line breaks up to the point where it could be dangerous to fire into a chaotic battlefield.

Please note, we are proposing two methods of fighting, which are mutually exclusive and will usually not occur in the same battle. The second is point archery / heavy archery / dead shooting, whatever you want to call it. This is where archers fire directly at each other and other combatants without warning and without the requirement for 'lobbing the shot'. The armour requirements will be critical area protection, which will probably mean full head and neck protection at a minimum, including face visors that will prevent any projectile larger than 5mm diameter from reaching the face or neck. We will be much more rigorous on certifying these archers to participate in this type of activity. My hope is that every archer will strive to meet this standard and participate. However I'm expecting that only perhaps 6 to 12 people will be able to get the required kit together for NAAMA this year... but that's 6 to 12 people who will be doing it at the envy of others, who will follow suit next year.

I had quite a good conversation with a few other archers who have done this before and have some good ideas.

There is some conjecture over whether we should allow well-known and respected archers to participate in point-archery with heavier than 30lb bows drawn shorter. There are some who feel this is a recipe for jealousy, misuse, and accidents in the heat of battle. More debate on this point would be welcomed. The main argument for restricting bow draw to 30lbs or less with every arrow at 28 inches or less is that in the heat of battle it's impossible for someone to pickup and draw a longer arrow or draw their bow past where they should be drawing safely, even if they should know better.


Now, I'd also like to talk about javelins. The SCA standard says that a rubber knob on the end of a 1/2 inch dowel is enough. There are again those who feel that a tennis ball is much safer, even if it doesn't look good, and can be used in melee combat without any participants needing special armour or needing to first make eye-contact. I would suggest that people wanting to do this should at least go through an orientation to javelin before any combat at NAAMA so they understand how to minimise the risk to others and themselves.


If this sounds like we're trying to make a lot of rules, we're not. It's just that we're trying to get peoples opinions before forming a core set of rules and requirements. The armour that we will specify as a requirement for example will fall a long way short of ideal, but will at least stop you losing an eye or breaking teeth. The basic rules for each type of combat archery will be enough to keep everyone safe without unnecessarily inhibiting creativity and future growth.

Because this is the first year where combat archery will be mainstream at NAAMA we're being cautious about introducing it without enough margin for safety to prevent serious accidents. Obviously if anyone gets seriously hurt because we didn't take adequate steps to educate people and make sure the risks were reduced to an acceptable level we would risk liability and wouldn't get people doing it again next year.


We would also like to introduce siege weapons as well, so more ideas around this would be welcomed. Tennis balls versus bean-bags? Minimum projectile size? Minimum siege engine size? Minimum shooting distance?


Nigel

[NigelT]

Blunts - attached is a photo of a Redhead blunt next to a Riverhaven blunt to show their relative shape.

Feathers - attaches is a photo of three different fletching configurations.

The top arrow is fletched with two 3-inch plastic vanes, and it what we've been calling a speed blunt. I test fired this 28 inch arrow at 45 degrees (a volley shot) and it had an effective range of 60 meters in my 40lb bow.

The middle arrow is fletched with two full-length full height spiral feathers, and is one variation of what we've been calling a flu-flu. When test fired the same way it had an effective range of 25 meters.

The bottom arrow is fletched with four full-height 5 to 6 inch slightly helical feathers (near enough to straight). When test-fired in the same way it traveled 35 meters.

I've also had the top and bottom arrows shot at me with chain over a gambeson and without the chain. I can confirm that the only one that really hurt was the speed-blunt fired without chain at a gambeson stretched tight over my leg. The other shots were unmistakable hits but not painful. Even the one that hurt didn't leave a bruise and was no worse than a paint-ball hit.

They both had riverhaven blunts on them. The Redhead blunt having perhaps half the surface area of the Riverhaven blunt would undoubtedly hurt more, but would probably still not leave any serious bruises.


As to the fletching - because so many people have complained about speed blunts (having high speed and high risk) and 'flu-flu's (having low range and can be seen coming), I wanted to find a middle-ground, which is where the bottom arrow in the photo came from. I think a three or four fletch arrow like this would be a reasonable compromise between the two and perhaps apease everyone? What do you think?


Nigel

[pmel018]

Hi Guys
great work on this guys, really nice to see some sort of accomodation being reached. As to javalins, there were a whole bunch that someone made out of bamboo with taped on head. Bamboo is much better than any doweld timber as it is 1- Free all around the place(in auckland at least) 2- really stong and resistant to splitting and splintering, a thin layer of duct tape make it even better.

For volley throws there is no reason not to use the same type of heads as you use on the arrows, add some tape to ensure they stay on and you are good to go. For point throws something a bit bigger in diametre is really required, a trip to the 2$ shop will turn up all sorts of useful items
Have fun but stay safe
Phil

[Angel]