Cutting a GDFB gambeson with an Albion Sherriff

[JohnF]

Put my gambie on a tyre based pell. Four downright blows from right shoulder,
on the pass. Striking it 1/3 down from the tip. Only creased the gambie.

Placed gambie on sturdy, immovable fence, two downright blows from right
shoulder, on the pass. Striking so the tip would penetrate the gambie by 4cm.
Managed to cut through the outer layer and most of the wool padding, but
didn't go through all the padding.







Conclusion, gambies are great .

[mikronn]

Hi John

Good on you for doing some tests - may try some similar with an old gambeson and some cheap mail too.

Your results very much mirror those Michael Edelson posted on myArmory
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

I'd be interested in anything else you try too

cheers

mike

[Mad Jim]

Its good to see as peoples still think that slashing someone who is wearing a gambeson or heavy jacket with a knife or sword will get an instant kill or deep cut!. (Sure depending on your strike with your sword it is achievable)
As I had to point out to one of our fellows looking into knife/dagger fighting, as his main tactic was just slashing, that against someone whos wearing just a t-shirt, sure you will cut him, but against someone wearing say a t-shirt, jumper and maybe a jacket your slashing will do little damage, hence why stabbing works better, he hadn't thought of it that way..
on a side note, I'd be to scared to use my (if I had one) sharp Albion on chain mail, I let Mr. Edleson do that!..

[mikronn]

Saw the cuts in John's gambeson today - hardly noticeable!

mike

[JohnF]

I agree Jim, slashing with a knife, or dagger, is a waste of time against anything heavier than a t-shirt. I have a book, English Martial Arts, which quotes some late renaissance newspapers. These old records talk about people being stabbed multiple times, and then killing the other guy. If it is that hard to kill someone by stabbing, I perish the thought at the number of slashes required against someone wearing a t-shirt.

At the OotB workshop today we used rondels, and only allowed thrusts.

I'm with you on not using my Albion Sherriff on mail. I am tempted to buy a machete from Bunnings and see what that can do.

Mike, they are just tiny nicks aren't they. It'd be fun to do some thrusts too. I suspect I'd have similar results to our friend on MyArmoury - thrusts will go through as if the gambie wasn't there.... one day when I get around to padding up my pell to simulate a stomach .

[Mad Jim]

Well there have been battle field reports where in one (I forgot where and when, time of rapiers I guess) a fellow took something like 9 thusts and stabbs, all seemingly missing major vitals, killed his way through the battle and managed to live and fight another day, so it is thought that stabbing is not always a definate kill.
Also on this I find when we are fencing I take more hits or glancing hits to my hands and forearms than any other part of me, so would that slow me down? yes if I lost the use of my limbs, but if not I'd proberly keep going, I do try to strike and stabb blows that I think would disable my opponent..I try to use winding whenever I can, though it can be hard when your person disengages alot! At the moment I am having to deal with a reckless buffalo but thats another story!

Oh yes as I had to point out also to my friend on the above said slashing, he was trying to take and use what he could from the Codex Wallerstein, but as it was none of the techniques shown really deal with slashing, only thrusting, so therefore now I think he sees it in a different light...well I hope so!

[JohnF]

Jim, Mike suggested to me today that the way to deal with someone who disengages is to press the attack. They will either be hit, or they'll eventually back into an obstacle that will stop them going backwards, and they will get hit. Either way. YOU WIN!

Thin blades like rapiers are notorious for not killing, on the day. That's one reason other swords were preferred for war. A wide blade like my Sherriff will cause tremendous discomfort if the thrusts can penetrate about the width of four fingers. Quite probably enough to discourage the enemy from fighting on. On that note, if you stand side on when receiving an abdominal thrust, the thrust is more likely to hit vital organs, but if you stand square on you have a better chance of the rapier missing the organs.

Look hard enough and you can find evidence of people fighting without a nose or mouth, or eye. Of people being shot several times and still running. In an analysis of the wounds, and cause of death, at the Battle of Wisby, it was found that many people had received sword and axe cuts to various body parts, including the head from previous battles. It was also fairly common for the dead to have a minor wound, such as those hand blows you're talking about, and a major wound, such as a missing leg, or a severed spine. Possibly the minor wound focused the mind on that wound, allowing the enemy to deal a killing blow.

On the Codex Wallerstein, I love the technique of robbing poor people by pinching the skin of their neck and poking your dagger through it to make them think you'd slit their throat. I guess it was okay to take their money, but not okay to kill the poor. How chivalrous

[Mad Jim]

haha yea I think we all love that plate from the codex, plus the "and heres another good trick" ie go for his nuts!

Yes also as for the disengager, following through works well, we only really have one major disengager, though he is rather reckless, as hes one of those that waits to strike, doesn't so much parry your strike, gets hit and causes a double hit, usally after you have hacked his arm or gashed his head! To deal with this I use feints, retiring steps and following after..
For today it will be longsword drill followed by dagger work from the codex..

We may be struck and bruised but boy we sure do love it!

[mikronn]

Hi Gents

I've been digging through some books on the Battle of Towton, including Blood Red Roses which covers the forensics of the wounds.

As John noted for Wisby, its amazing what wounds people took before dying. It also seemed to note that most people who were killed were caught fleeing or were on the ground and therefore more simulated John's pell (stationary) than a fighting man. Even still the wounds that killed seemed to be to the head, where a helm had come off.

In other words, armor works! There's a shocker.

I've found with the WMA fighting we do knowing what to do in the close play and basically putting your opponent in a position where you shove the rondel throu vulnerable points works best. Especially if you have them controlled so they can't do anything back.

Still learning to do that with sword and buckler!

Lots of other moves will work because we are simulating an unarmored fight. And swords cut flesh way better than John's gambie.

Against an armored foe? Doubt it. I agree with you both, the minor wounds would slow you down after a while and you may then receive a death blow.

cheers

mike

[JohnF]

Mike, I agree that it is helpful to have a good grasp of our opponents, or have
shut down major lines of attack, in delivering lethal blows with a dagger. The
tournament style fighting we were doing on Saturday was fun, but it was
sport, not fighting in earnest.

I found the method of ?changing the sword? when in the bind interesting. I've
never done that before, but I think it'll work well in sparring. The tip on cutting
between the sword arm and head was a fine detail, too.

[conal]

Cutting test on car bonet.

Context:Underlying slash is a great deal of blunt force trauma for gambeson wearer.

Hey guys this is provided as a bit of an example as to what the Romans were up against in Dacia.

2hd slasher from zombietools. Forgive the lack of historical reference.

http://zombietools.net/blog/

check destroying the deuce.